I've listened to this great breakdown numerous times. But now after riding a new small track in BC with extremely hard breaking and critical bike direction there's so much more nuance to this topic. Getting a better personal feel helped to take in the KH coaching. Thx!
It is really the exact same thing as Laguna T3…except it’s an entry corner vs an exit corner, so the brake release point is later. It still has all the same 3 elements and because it is an entry corner, the 3rd element of controlling brake release for entry speed is even more important.
Your process for braking before turn-in, at turn-in and after turn-in answers almost all of my questions. Would you advise any changes to your process for riding on the road where gravel is present in most corners?
On the street, if I am using my brakes for a corner, I am turning in with them to make sure I have the ability to adjust for whatever comes my way. Either lighter pressure or more pressure if needed. Gravel is tough, as there are many variations, depths etc. For a low grip situation, I would have my fingers in the brake hard enough to just have the brake pads engaged to the rotors.
I might get in trouble with this. What I think is missing from this explanation, and pretty much all similar explanations, is what it feels like. I have a lot of road miles and I have been asked to teach people how to ride. Right after clutch and shifting, I taught a risky braking drill. I want my people to survive on the street so I feel obligated to teach emergency stopping. My drill is done on an open lot. I ask my people to put the bike in first gear and apply the front brake while increasing the throttle to maintain a speed of about 10-15 MPH. I ask them to increase the throttle and the brake pressure until the front tire just starts to slide. When they get scared, release the brake. They learn how the steering turns in, how to recover, and how to modulate it. When they get good, they can slide the front all the way across the whole lot. With enough practice, it becomes "muscle memory" and it builds up "feel."
Having said that, I can't get myself to do that on the race track. I once asked a coach, "how do you know what the limit of traction is?" His reply, "By exceeding it." Even with my wacky braking drill, I struggle with feel.
Adam - I’ve done that drill and I get it…it really drives the point home. That said, I feel it is much more important to teach how the tire is loaded, so understanding of how loading the front tire controls grip. I would start it in a high grip environment, then move the same process to a low grip environment. After that, your drill can come in handy. I certainly wouldn’t add that in until some sort of fundamental understanding of how the front brake and front tire work together.
In general I’d agree but I think Adam’s drill brakes (pun intended) this convention on purpose to help learn.
Though I believe there are circumstances where brakes and throttle can be used together to help with stability/geometry and putting power down on the tarmac though this may be more for the rear brake and way above my skill level at the moment.
Agree on rear brake and throttle, there are times it can really help on - Wheelies, weight transfer, tightening lines mid corner, etc. But imo, these techniques fall on the incremental side vs the fundamental side.
I listen to Ken’s words but do i really hear what he’s saying..?
Slowly it’s going into my brain and I feel I’m understanding it more and more.
I’ve been riding the same bit of road back and forth repeatedly and trying different techniques on the same corners, and when I don’t use the brakes on entry to corners it scares the hell out of me cause my bike doesn’t turn in the lovely smooth manner to which I’m getting accustomed! The difference is like night and day!
It’s not just a difference in speed, I can feel the tyre loading, the geometry change and the bike wants to go round!
I’m starting to think I might one day be competent on track!
Thanks Ken, continuing to appreciate all your help!
This really helps, especially with the track map and sketching the diagrams on the screen while talking it through.
My main issue is lack of practice in applying the theory I have absorbed.
I keep coming back to the conclusion that I need to invest in tuition but I then start debating with myself whether more practice and track miles would help me feel I could get more from tuition, and it continues in a circular argument in my help 🤦♂️
For sure there is a point where being able to practically apply all of knowledge objectives into skill objectives. Furthermore, getting 1-1 attention is really the best value per lap you can get.
I did talk a little bit about it in the video. The portion where we start off with light pressure, then gradually build it up to capture weight transfer at turn in.
I've listened to this great breakdown numerous times. But now after riding a new small track in BC with extremely hard breaking and critical bike direction there's so much more nuance to this topic. Getting a better personal feel helped to take in the KH coaching. Thx!
Thanks Ken I learned a few things that will help with my next track day
Thanks Ken, really enjoyed this.
Hi Ken,
I get it concerning turn 3 at Laguna, but what’s the appropriate way to brake for and through a corner like 14 at Thunder Hill east 3 mile?
It is really the exact same thing as Laguna T3…except it’s an entry corner vs an exit corner, so the brake release point is later. It still has all the same 3 elements and because it is an entry corner, the 3rd element of controlling brake release for entry speed is even more important.
Hi Ken,
Would like to have had this concept introduced to me a long time ago! 😉
Hi Ken,
Your process for braking before turn-in, at turn-in and after turn-in answers almost all of my questions. Would you advise any changes to your process for riding on the road where gravel is present in most corners?
On the street, if I am using my brakes for a corner, I am turning in with them to make sure I have the ability to adjust for whatever comes my way. Either lighter pressure or more pressure if needed. Gravel is tough, as there are many variations, depths etc. For a low grip situation, I would have my fingers in the brake hard enough to just have the brake pads engaged to the rotors.
I might get in trouble with this. What I think is missing from this explanation, and pretty much all similar explanations, is what it feels like. I have a lot of road miles and I have been asked to teach people how to ride. Right after clutch and shifting, I taught a risky braking drill. I want my people to survive on the street so I feel obligated to teach emergency stopping. My drill is done on an open lot. I ask my people to put the bike in first gear and apply the front brake while increasing the throttle to maintain a speed of about 10-15 MPH. I ask them to increase the throttle and the brake pressure until the front tire just starts to slide. When they get scared, release the brake. They learn how the steering turns in, how to recover, and how to modulate it. When they get good, they can slide the front all the way across the whole lot. With enough practice, it becomes "muscle memory" and it builds up "feel."
Having said that, I can't get myself to do that on the race track. I once asked a coach, "how do you know what the limit of traction is?" His reply, "By exceeding it." Even with my wacky braking drill, I struggle with feel.
Adam - I’ve done that drill and I get it…it really drives the point home. That said, I feel it is much more important to teach how the tire is loaded, so understanding of how loading the front tire controls grip. I would start it in a high grip environment, then move the same process to a low grip environment. After that, your drill can come in handy. I certainly wouldn’t add that in until some sort of fundamental understanding of how the front brake and front tire work together.
Throttle and front brake application are mutually exclusive as per my novice understanding.
In general I’d agree but I think Adam’s drill brakes (pun intended) this convention on purpose to help learn.
Though I believe there are circumstances where brakes and throttle can be used together to help with stability/geometry and putting power down on the tarmac though this may be more for the rear brake and way above my skill level at the moment.
Agree on rear brake and throttle, there are times it can really help on - Wheelies, weight transfer, tightening lines mid corner, etc. But imo, these techniques fall on the incremental side vs the fundamental side.
I’m back watching this one on repeat.
I listen to Ken’s words but do i really hear what he’s saying..?
Slowly it’s going into my brain and I feel I’m understanding it more and more.
I’ve been riding the same bit of road back and forth repeatedly and trying different techniques on the same corners, and when I don’t use the brakes on entry to corners it scares the hell out of me cause my bike doesn’t turn in the lovely smooth manner to which I’m getting accustomed! The difference is like night and day!
It’s not just a difference in speed, I can feel the tyre loading, the geometry change and the bike wants to go round!
I’m starting to think I might one day be competent on track!
Thanks Ken, continuing to appreciate all your help!
Great comment Dan! It's quite amazing how little brake it takes to load the front and help you turn. Keep sneaking up on it.
This really helps, especially with the track map and sketching the diagrams on the screen while talking it through.
My main issue is lack of practice in applying the theory I have absorbed.
I keep coming back to the conclusion that I need to invest in tuition but I then start debating with myself whether more practice and track miles would help me feel I could get more from tuition, and it continues in a circular argument in my help 🤦♂️
If only you were in based in the UK Ken!
For sure there is a point where being able to practically apply all of knowledge objectives into skill objectives. Furthermore, getting 1-1 attention is really the best value per lap you can get.
Hi Ken, did you miss out including the braking drill you referenced in the description , sorry , I could not find it in the video
I did talk a little bit about it in the video. The portion where we start off with light pressure, then gradually build it up to capture weight transfer at turn in.